Episode #178: A New Era in Bridging Technology and Humanity in Sex Work, with Arik Brueckner, CRO of Choice App

INTRODUCTION:

In this episode of the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus podcast, host De’Vannon Seráphino sits down with Arik, the founder of Choice, a booking platform for paid companionship based in Europe. They discuss the importance of making sex work safer and more transparent. Arik shares his motivations, the challenges of the industry, the measures Choice has implemented to ensure safety, and the potential for these services to help tackle issues like loneliness. They also touch on the history of sex work and its place in society, wrapping up with a lighthearted segment of dad jokes.

Playlists: https://music.apple.com/profile/DeVannonSeraphino

Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com


INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

·      A New Era in Paid Companionship.

·      LBTQIA+ Considerations.

·      The Safety Aspect of Sex Work.

·      Apps’ Money-Making Models.

·      Revelation 18 - the Souls of Humans.

·      The Addictive Nature of Sex/Dating Apps.

·      Dating App Burnout.

·      Spiritual/Soul Considerations.

CONNECT WITH ARIK BRUECKNER:

Website: https://choice.ch

Fb: https://www.facebook.com/saferchoice.ch

IG: https://www.instagram.com/saferchoice.ch/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@choice.ch

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@saferchoice/

LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/arikbrueckner/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/saferchoice/

X: https://x.com/saferchoicech

CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON SERÁPHINO:

TikTok: https://shorturl.at/nqyJ4

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Email: SDJPodcastNewYork@Gmail.com

Thanks for listening!!! Please follow us on YouTube + TikTok @SexDrugsAndJesusPodcast

Transcript

Episode #178: A New Era in Bridging Technology and Humanity in Sex Work, with Arik Brueckner, CRO of Choice App

 

De'Vannon Seráphino: [00:00:00] Hello, hello, hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus podcast. I am your host, De’Vannon Seráphino, and it's so glad to be back with y'all. I have with me this incredibly handsome and intelligent man here coming to us all the way from Copenhagen. His name is Arik. He just likes to go by Arik, so we'll just leave it at that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: His name is Arik, and and this, this man has a big old brain, a big old mind, and also a heart full of compassion. for all kinds of people. He has no judgment and he is very open minded. Arik, how are you today? 

Arik Brueckner: I'm so glad to be here. Thanks a lot. Then and for, for inviting me for, for being on your show and yeah.

Arik Brueckner: And thanks for being back. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: So y'all, Oh, absolutely. So y'all Arik, has to do with a company called And a website called choice, which has to do with sex work [00:01:00] and monetizing it, he is over there in Europe where sex work is legal, as opposed over here in the United States, where, where we have some growing to do in that area.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And just, just tell us a little bit briefly about your company. And I'm going to read a little bit of your brief bio here that I snatched off of LinkedIn. 

Arik Brueckner: Sure. Yeah. So choice is basically a booking platform, a safe and inclusive booking platform for the entire spectrum of paid companionship. So what we mean by paid companionship is you can book or request on choice or on the choice platform, anything from.

Arik Brueckner: chatting with someone online, to video calls, to having a coffee or lunch with someone, to holding hands, to having intimate intimate connections or [00:02:00] activities with someone, provided they are legal in the jurisdiction you're, you meet. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: That's absolutely beautiful. So let me read this little snippet from Arik's background that I thought was so, so cute that Arik's an entrepreneur, entrepreneur at heart, with a passion for technology, practically all his life.

De'Vannon Seráphino: He has been building businesses from selling his sister's perfumes when she was abroad studying when he was the age of 5 to customizing USB flash drives in high school. His software sells during his studies. After helping bootstrap his previous company to an eight digit A. R. R. Annual revenue returns is what that stands for something like that as the chief revenue officer now working to on destigmatizing and improving the safety of the paid companionship and intimacy industry.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So that part about selling your sister's perfumes when you were five [00:03:00]reminded me. When I was about that age, back in the 80s, we used to make these fucking multicolored elastic keychain things that would have all these designs and patterns and shit going around them. And I would make them, I would mass produce them and send them to work with my dad so he could run me my money and bring me my fucking coin back because I had an empire to build at that young age to sew.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I really respect that and identify with that because those of us who are entrepreneurs and have that drive, I think that's in us from like birth and it starts at that age. It's so cute. So I bet you those perfumes were just darling. Absolutely. Darling. 

Arik Brueckner: Yeah. I mean, I mean, I, I think to be honest, not much has changed from, from selling the perfumes basically.

Arik Brueckner: I mean, it's, it, I went through the same steps that I would have to go through now to [00:04:00] start building a business. Right. So there was, an obvious need basically. So, absolutely. So, people want perfumes and they were just lying around. My sister was studying abroad for like a couple of years, so she wasn't using them either.

Arik Brueckner: And then I just took a bench, put them on the bench and waited. Basically waited for customers. And that was like the, the real life customer market research. So yeah, not much, not much changed. I mean, that's the same way I would start a business now. Just, look at markets that are dysfunctional or.

Arik Brueckner: Or problems, problems in society, like, like loneliness or like paid companionship and then see what technology can do to make it better. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Right. And so this company was founded just in 2023, [00:05:00] growing on a lot of different countries. You made it over to the United States, which is a real mile marker because the United States is a hard ass when it comes to sexual things.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Why? Okay, so why podcasting though? This is a very public facing sort of thing to do. I put a podcast, prostitution, sex work. All of that is an industry that most people associate to be done in the shadow. Yet here you are. You have to do with the technological aspect of it all the same. But still, why bring this to the forefront and let us, why are we looking at your beautiful face today?

Arik Brueckner: Well, so I think, I think what. I mean, the reason is simple. So I wanted to have with this company, I wanted to have a positive impact on society. So make the paid companionship industry. More refined as in more defined so that people who are [00:06:00] seeking, for example, companionship can also just get companionship.

Arik Brueckner: People who are seeking proximity there's lots of people who, who genuinely just are looking for closeness, holding hands, hugging, et cetera, but as a service or in the form of a service, and that's close to impossible to get. Because the market right now always mixes it with, with intimacy and sexual intimacy.

Arik Brueckner: And then there is also sexual intimacy where a lot of people have a genuine interest in understanding more about their own sexuality or more about their intimacy, but not necessarily from a theoretical point of view, but from a, a practical one. And that's also very, very difficult, to to, to get from in a, in a like verified or safe service scenario.

Arik Brueckner: So so [00:07:00] we're really here to, to build trust in this industry and transparency, and I think you cannot, you cannot build a company and say that you're building transparency and trust when you stay in the background yourself. So that's why I actually love these podcasts. There's no question that, that, that is not important in this regard.

Arik Brueckner: Also, like we just had a, a news coverage, some a press coverage. And I also reply to lots of the comments like there's lots of very valid comments that may sound offensive, but they're absolutely valid. If people think these questions, those are valid questions and we need to take a stance and.

Arik Brueckner: communicate as a company, what our opinion is about these questions and these topics. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Very good. I'm going to touch on the loneliness aspect of that later, because I pulled a snippet from your website that the [00:08:00] loneliness in Germany article that you have. And then I want to talk a little bit about this from the companionship aspect.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I wanted to read a little bit that I pulled from, Wikipedia about prostitution in Switzerland. Arik is from Switzerland originally. And so I just thought I would go poking around in Switzerland and see, although a lot of this, a lot of the research brought me into like the United Kingdom as well, but a lot of it, a lot of the mentality is the same across the different parts of Europe.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So this says that prostitution in Switzerland is legal and regulated. Has been legal since 1942. Who knew trafficking, forcing people into prostitution and most forms of pimping are illegal .Licensed brothels typically with the reception and leading to several studio apartments are available. One estimate puts the number of street sex workers in Zurich at 5, 000.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Another estimate. 20, 000 prostitutes in the country. The majority are foreigners from the Americas, Central [00:09:00] Europe, or the Far East. In recent years, the number of full service sex workers has increased. Many sex, many workers operate using newspaper advertisements, mobile phones, and secondary rented apartments.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Some even accept credit cards. So I was, surprised to see that the prostitution hasn't been legal for that long short and short in short order, that'll be like 100 years. So what your company is working to do is to make it safer and more accessible, even though it's been around. So, how are you contributing to what's already seems like it's been in place?

Arik Brueckner: Yeah, so that that's a that's a very valid question. So I think there's when you said regulate, so there's there's a couple of things that we that we have to dismantle a little bit here. So first of all, when you say prostitution, I think we need to, [00:10:00] we need to correct that, that terminology a little bit, because when, when people hear prostitution, what they associate prostitution with oftentimes are are non consensual parts of sex work.

Arik Brueckner: So prostitution is oftentimes associated with, with human trafficking or forced prostitution. So it's, it's important to, to separate these two these two terms, prostitution and what, what we, what we are doing with choices, we are enabling the self determined. And consensual form of sex work among paid intimacy and paid companionship, but that that's really important to separate these because people [00:11:00] or society still mixes or associates, positive aspects of the industry with very negative aspects.

Arik Brueckner: And that's what that's exactly to start with. That's exactly why we are building choice so that we. give a platform to the consensual and self determined and inclusive way of paid companionship, including paid intimacy and including paid sexual intimacy where it is legal, right? So we, we are, we net, we always ensure that services offered and provided are within the legal the legal boundaries, to start legalized in Switzerland since 1942, but that was only for heterosexual sex work.

Arik Brueckner: So for [00:12:00] homosexual sex work took another 50 years to get legalized. So it was not in, so it sounds like something very progressive, but it was not necessarily very progressive because it was not inclusive at all. And it, it is not inclusive systematically speaking until today. Because, for example, female clients, we ran a survey among potential female clients to ask would, if, if, if there would be interest in paid companionship as a sector, if they could imagine ever using paid companionship from, from the client perspective.

Arik Brueckner: And it became very, it became clear very quickly that women, the, the, the focus of female customers is safety. That's the number one focus. And right now there is no platform focusing on safety. So systematically the market is [00:13:00] excluding female customers as well. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: You mentioned You know, the queer aspect of it.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Do you have a lot of males involved in sex work over in Europe? 

Arik Brueckner: I mean, there are only estimates, right? It's very, it's, it's, it's very, it's very difficult to say, but for example, on our platform so that's something that we tried ourselves. We, the platform is, we consider choice to be a safety technology.

Arik Brueckner: So we don't moderate. It's open and accessible to anyone as long as you adhere to the guidelines, which are you can only represent, correct information. You have to verify all the all the photos that you would like to upload and you have to scan an ID and take a selfie to verify your age. So there are we do have male providers, although it's less than female providers, but that's also because for the reason I [00:14:00] just.

Arik Brueckner: Mentioned that market is, not new, but underdeveloped in that sense, because, because of the safety aspect,

De'Vannon Seráphino: when, what are, what are some of the examples of the things that you have in place to ensure safety? Is that where it keeps coming up? 

Arik Brueckner: Yeah. So, I mean, and it's also important to draw the line there. So just because a booking happens on choice, it doesn't mean it's 100 percent safe. We just do whatever technology can contribute to making it as safe as possible.

Arik Brueckner: So, for example, everyone is ID and selfie verified on the platform. To, to ensure the age, but also as an, as an identity escrow, so to say. So similar to when you would, I don't know, rent a car or a bike, you have to [00:15:00] hand in your ID as a deposit. The same happens on, on choice so both parties to the meeting know that the other party also handed in their ID, there is a behavioral guideline, behavioral guideline code.

Arik Brueckner: That everybody needs to read and accept when requesting a booking or when accepting a booking. There is, for example, the entire service fee for the meeting is prepaid into an escrow account with us. So, what that does is, It just makes sure that, for example, that, for example, during the meeting or before, there is no boundary pushing because boundary pushing, basically, renegotiating services that are stated very clearly on the provider profile that they do or, or don't do or don't [00:16:00] offer, is considered a breach of our behavioral guidelines.

Arik Brueckner: So when that is not when, when the, when the choice code is, is breached or violated, then they, then that can get reported. And then the funds would get released to the provider and the client side would either be terminated. So the, the, the account could be terminated. And unlike dating apps, we can actually block people for good because we block them with the ID.

Arik Brueckner: So you cannot re register if you're a bad actor in the market, right? You cannot re register and get access to the market again, and if it's a minor violation of the behavioral guidelines, then you would still get a strike and that strike will be visible to other people. People that you're chatting are interacting with.

Arik Brueckner: So the idea is that, back to your back to when, when sex work was legalized in Switzerland, 1942, or at least parts of it, [00:17:00] had we started in 1942, coming up with a very effective blocking mechanism of all the bad actors we, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have a perception of an unsafe market today.

Arik Brueckner: Yet we do, right? Because there is no, at the very basic level in this market, there is no effective way of blocking anyone. So, so if anyone does not adhere to behavioral guidelines or respectful, or be respectful during the meetings, There, there is no, there is nobody except the law to or prosecution to actually stop them from doing it again.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Money is a great motivator. So what I'm hearing you say is you verify people's ID, whatever fee is negotiated between your provider and the client is going into an [00:18:00] escrow account and it's not transferred until the services are rendered. If something fucked up happens, then a strike goes against whomever, then the money is sent to the provider because probably usually it would be the client that's committing a trespass and probably not the providers.

De'Vannon Seráphino: But, and then since people have already paid their money, they're probably less likely to act the fool. And then, then you have their ID. So I think that that's very, very clever and very, very smart. I mean, money, money, money, that I think the money is probably the thing that'll make people act right more so than the ID because people are ready.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So we, 

Arik Brueckner: we, I mean, we, we, we had, we avoided two safety incidents already through the system. So, and, and it's, it's exactly what you say so oftentimes people like mostly clients, mostly clients, they they would book a meeting. And then [00:19:00] the negotiation position is automatically better for the client side than for the for the provider side, because the meeting is locked in.

Arik Brueckner: So they reserved, they blocked the time. Sometimes they have to travel somewhere, so they're already there. And there's right now in the market, most of the times there is no security whatsoever. Right? That's why, for example, a lot of providers, a lot of companions in the U. S. ask for the I. D. and for deposits, but directly to them.

Arik Brueckner: So that's, that then, doesn't equalize the negotiation position. It shifts it from the customer being in the better one to the customer being in the worst one, because they already sent all the details. Plus they sent, a deposit, not to an escrow account, but directly to the provider. So there, so if there, if it was a scam, they're more likely to get scammed as if there was a serious, escrow [00:20:00]provider such as us.

Arik Brueckner: In between. So I think that's, so there's only one or the other extreme, there's nothing, there's nothing equal or equalizing the negotiation position. And that, that's exactly what we're trying to do. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: What you're, what you're saying, man, sounds a lot safer and than anything I've seen here in the United States.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I personally don't go on any sex apps or dating apps. I'm adamantly against them in terms of, like, for my personal taste. And I'm, and I'm always looking at things from an energetic and a spiritual perspective. I don't judge anybody. For the things they do. Otherwise, I would not host a sex drug to Jesus podcast or be talking to somebody who has to do with it.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I don't have to like everything for myself. I just focus on what I have in common with my friends and I don't try to change them. I don't have everything in common with [00:21:00] them. Many of my friends are sex workers or atmosphere models or whatever they want to call themselves. I just be like girl do you but we don't go and do these drugs or whatever together that we like to do but I don't have anything to do with that aspect of it.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Having been on sex and dating apps before, that's why I know I don't like them, I can tell you here in the United States, apps, popular fucking apps like, say, Grindr, and Tinder and things like that, I don't think Grindr even has a motherfucking, I guess you're familiar with Grindr, I'm sure you researched they don't even, at least the last time I was on it, which has been quite a while, there is no damn ID verification.

De'Vannon Seráphino: If somebody makes a mistake, quote unquote, you can just sign up with a new email address. There is no re verification people. There is no escrow account because it's just like literally whoever can hop on there, put pictures of whomever up there. People have, At some point, at one point, somebody [00:22:00] established a fake account with my pictures on there just to be shady, because you can just screenshot, do it, and people just go run off with each other with no, nothing that resembles any kind of accountability.

De'Vannon Seráphino: People can get hurt really easily that way, and it does happen because you just met the person, you don't know anything about them, and now you're at their house. And there is no there's nothing in the system even remotely like what you're talking about. So, I personally have a lot against Grindr and a lot against the way sex and dating apps are done in the United States because it's just a free for all.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And it's just, and it's just all fucked up and the energy around it is very erratic. It's very erratic. Do you have any Yeah, 

Arik Brueckner: I guess, I guess the, I mean I I think when I want to get to the bottom of what a company wants to do, I look at the business model. Okay. So how do, how does a company make money?

Arik Brueckner: So [00:23:00] they, so there's lots of directories where, providers can can create an ad and they pay for the ad and then customers or potential customers can contact them through the ad looking at a directory business. How they make money is ad revenue from the providers paying for getting listed on their platform.

Arik Brueckner: So do they have an interest to verify the providers or the ads? No, because they want to get as many paid ads as possible. Do they have an interest in what happens after contact is established? No, because They just care about how many paid ads they can get on the platform. They don't care if meetings happen.

Arik Brueckner: They don't care if meetings go well or go bad. That's just the nature of their business. And with, with dating apps, I wouldn't go as [00:24:00] far because they, but looking at the business model of dating apps, how do they make money with the premium subscriptions? Potentially with ads as well, but mostly with the premium subscriptions of, of the users.

Arik Brueckner: So they want you and the algorithms purpose is to keep you active on the app as long as possible. So, so, so that, so that's really, to me, that's less transparent than paid companionship. Where one party says, I am willing to offer or provide these services. I'm willing to go through all these hoops to create my profile and get it approved.

Arik Brueckner: It doesn't cost me anything. And then clients say, I'm looking for exactly this. And. They, there's no negotiation, by the way, on the price. The price is stated by the [00:25:00] provider and clients cannot negotiate it. So it's, so we think this is more transparent than. An algorithm in the back in the back creating a connection or matching between between strangers for whatever reason.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So, I mean, I agree. I mean, I, I mean, I just flat out agree with that. This the way the way that the, like, like, say, grinder and those, People do, do that, like, without any, like, care or, concern. It reminds me of this scripture. Let me look this up. And we're gonna talk about, like, this, like, the spirituality of this here, here shortly. Because, [00:26:00] in my mind we can never Lord, we can never separate soul and spirit from anything because we're all souls.

De'Vannon Seráphino: We're all spirits and everything has a spirit to it and energy to it at the end of the day. And so that's why I come at it from that angle, though. Obviously, I get that we're all human and we have our human elements. We also have our soul element too. And so a part of my calling is to always bring in the spiritual element to things where others may be missing that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And so.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And this, this, and so in the book of Revelation in chapter 18, around verse 13, it talks about how the, how merchants of the earth made a whole lot of money, but they sacrifice people in the process. Okay. And and how, and how God is not particularly happy with that. So I'm just going to read this and then we'll carry on.[00:27:00]

De'Vannon Seráphino: And, and it says in the merchants of the earth, she'll weep and mourn over her for no man. They're merchandise anymore, they're merchandise of gold and silver and precious stones and of pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet and all thine wood and all manner of vessels of ivory and all manner of vessels of most precious wood and of brass and iron and marble and cinnamon and odors and ointments and frankincense and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and brass, beasts and sheep and horses and chariots and slaves and souls of men.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And this here is talking about. How the rich only want to get richer and richer and richer and no matter how much they get it's not enough and even if they have to throw people under the bus under the chariot and wreck people's minds and self esteem the way that I have seen a lot of these sex apps do.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I have a particular thing against a grinder you know that was a huge part of like an instrument that helped to ruin the [00:28:00] last relationship that I was in because the other person just couldn't get off of those damn apps like that. And, they form addictions, they, the certain sounds and the certain things that they make in there are tuned to a certain thing to keep, to entice people to come back, like you said, the algorithms and everything, it's it's a variable ratio reinforcement thing, like how they use in casinos if you hit a jackpot to try to keep you coming back if you press the little fire thing or you hear that sound how long do you have to stay on the app before you'll get that That beep message where somebody wants to message you.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Could this be the one that you're going to have sex with or spend the rest of your life with? So they're playing on people's loneliness, which we're about to talk about, but they're not actually, they don't have the safety rails in place, and they don't care if the person spends 20 hours a day on there.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And I've, people have spent a fucking lot of time on Grindr, and it's [00:29:00]not, or on, on Tinder and all of them, really. And it doesn't really lead to much. And then they're right back there having to do the same damn thing the next day. Because if they're just having sex for validation there's no, there's no end to a need for that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: At least with what you're doing, somebody's getting paid and somebody's feeling like they're getting some something tangible out of the deal. 

Arik Brueckner: I think, I think that's a conversation I have a lot. Because we would like to. So two things to touch on here. We would like to position choice as an alternative to dating apps.

Arik Brueckner: So there's something called dating app burnout, and it's it's a thing. So it's it's a thing so big that it has become the number one priority of Match group, which basically owns most of the dating apps. [00:30:00] So, and, and the reason for it is there are certain things that you may consider you, you consume or have in a certain frequency you may go to a barber or hairdresser, sort of as a treatment, but when it comes to companionship, we don't look at it that way.

Arik Brueckner: We always. Expect it to be a lot of people say genuine because they consider if it's done as a service, it's not genuine, which, which I disagree having talked to a lot of people that generally offer this as a service. And we would like to make that possible because we think that companionship, if it's if it's provided and consumed as a service, it can be equally genuine.

Arik Brueckner: But most importantly, it makes sure that. [00:31:00] One side gets the empathy it it really needs in that moment, whether it is going having a coffee together and somebody listening to the other person because it's a service it's not a favor from another person. And it doesn't mean that you have to do this every day, but maybe once in a while as an alternative to, to to dating apps.

Arik Brueckner: You could sort of as a wellness treatment, have a paid companionship experience. And then the other topic to touch upon is, we had examples on the, on the platform already where people where people in a, in a, in a relationship actually integrated hate companionship into their relationship model, transparently, openly.

Arik Brueckner: So they said [00:32:00] maybe, maybe there's one partner that has a certain fantasy or has a certain need that the other partner cannot or does not want to satisfy, and yet they don't want to sacrifice the entire relationship because of that. And we, we, we actually see it as a constructive thing to talk about, to talk about these, these differences or expectations in a, in a partnership, and then why not embed, embed a service to actually.

Arik Brueckner: Improve the relationship improve or become part of a new relationship model. So yeah, that may be very progressive, but I think I think transparency and talking about things is always better than, than not talking about them and not addressing them. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Yeah, no [00:33:00] shit. Like a lot of. Lives could have been saved, relationships saved, people would have just opened their fucking mouth and said what was on their heart, on their mind, rather than just acting, or reacting, or just going, running off and doing.

De'Vannon Seráphino: That way we can always get down to the reason behind things. Why do we feel the way we feel? Why do we want to do what we want to do? And cross check it. Sometimes we just, we shouldn't just run off and do every damn fantasy that pops into our head. Not, not everything is meant to be done and that every experience is meant to be had we live in a world where that word experiences is constantly thrown around experiences, experiences, experiences.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's almost like people feel like their life is going to run away from them, or they won't get the full value off of it. Experiences are part and parcel to the course of living. I want people to get to a point where they're refining their experiences and being sure they're very fucking high quality and carry emotional depth.

De'Vannon Seráphino: In meaning, because experiences are going to [00:34:00] happen, but we can be sure they're the right ones for us. And not every experience is meant for us to have a say that with me people listening that every experience is meant for me to have you don't want to get off and shift. That's not, that's not meant for you.

De'Vannon Seráphino: You may end up, you're gonna end up hurting yourself if you do that. And the thing is, when people go and have experiences and they do get hurt, they don't come back and report that because that's not cute for social media everybody gets on social media and acts like everything is great and wonderful.

De'Vannon Seráphino: But if they get, if they get their head bashed in on a hookup or get their wallet stolen or their tire slashed, they're not going to tell you that. But don't, but don't act, but don't think that it's not happening because that's the whole reason for a choice to exist is because bad things do happen when people meet people that they don't know.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And so that's why they're trying to mitigate that to provide the safest experience possible. Now,

De'Vannon Seráphino: let me get on the spiritual [00:35:00] aspect of this for a moment in terms of like, so we've mentioned, so we've talked about like loneliness. My, for me personally, I view sex. As like, so, we are mind, body, soul, spirit. We have like seven spiritual bodies, like our astral body, our different bodies like that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: You can read about this a lot like online or wherever they, they really look at that heavily, like an Eastern religion. When we have sex with somebody, it's really like a soul fusion that is happening. And whether or not somebody wants to marry the person, call it meaningless sex or whatever, .

De'Vannon Seráphino: Since sex is something that the divine created, humans don't have the power to rewrite the esoteric and astral laws governing sex. Now they can put themselves in a state of denial about it, but they can't change it. And so that's why things like, say, sex magic work. [00:36:00] Myself and two other spiritual leaders put a blog on my website, sexdrugsandjesus.

De'Vannon Seráphino: com, about sex magic, and we answered questions about that. Those things are true. I've dealt with witchcraft and stuff ever since I was a child. Whether or not somebody believes in voodoo and witchcraft or sex magic is irrelevant. Like, it will work on you one way or the other. Your belief system doesn't have to be in place.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And when we have sex with people, We fully open up our souls to people because it is a soul transfer. That's, that's why such things as this on a positive note, like sexual transmutation and sexual alchemy, where people can come together and have sex and use those energies to heal themselves, to get closer to the divine, to give honor to the divine.

De'Vannon Seráphino: You can use sexual power between two people to manifest big things. That's a more direct, intentional, coursing of those energies. So personally, I would never pay for sex or sell it, because I view sex as a high magic [00:37:00] ritual. It is a very sacred thing, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't personally do it, but if somebody's going to do it, I would rather them do it in the safest way possible.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I'm not judging y'all at all. A lot of my friends do this. A lot of my friends do a lot of shit that I would never do, but I don't go around trying to fix them or repair them. I don't ever say you need to stop doing that. I just make them aware of these spiritual risk and implications of whatever the fuck they want to do.

De'Vannon Seráphino: They do, and we focus on what we have in common. I don't look at them like they're any less than me or anything like that, but we have to know what we're for and what we're not for and why. Now notice I'm not saying I don't think this is bad just because it's some general blanket sin. To me, anything that we should not do comes along with some sort of risk or some sort of damage to ourselves, some sort of practical quantifiable harm.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And to me, that's what, that's what any type of quote unquote sin would be anyway, because there's always a logical reason to it. [00:38:00] Loneliness, in my opinion, won't be fixed by A lot of this, I think people as like on your website, there was mentioned like COVID and everything like that in the loneliness article until people get to a point where they can be happy.

De'Vannon Seráphino: in their own energy by themselves and they start out their childhood issues and everything like that. No amount of dating, meeting people for coffee and certainly not sex is going to fix people's internal loneliness. That is a very deep thing. However, I am happy for things like your app as a form of harm reduction because it's far better for somebody to set up a date with somebody to go have coffee than to cut themselves from being lonely.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Okay, I like this for being used as an alternative to something far worse like that, but it's not going to fix it. So I just want people to understand that if you're lonely. [00:39:00] You can't seek healing in people you have to get yourself sorted out with the divine, but this is a beautiful thing to have in the meantime, though, 

Arik Brueckner: I couldn't have, I couldn't have like, summarize it better myself, to be honest, like, that's exactly what you just said is exactly what we what we stand for.

Arik Brueckner: So first, the part about no judging. It's the same, it's the same thing, like who am I to judge or say what people should or shouldn't do or can or cannot do. I mean, I'm going to quote a professor of the University of Richmond here that I, that I had the pleasure talking to she wrote a book about that, that's called Debating Sex Work, that was published in Oxford University Press, Jessica Flanagan.

Arik Brueckner: So in her case for decriminalization of sex work, she says, In the very basic [00:40:00] line of argument, she says two people can have sex for whatever reason, or sexual intercourse, or sexual activity, for whatever reason. And pecuniary remuneration, so paying someone for that, does not change their ability to give consent to that activity.

Arik Brueckner: And I think that's that's something really, really important as long. So, people can do whatever they want as long as it's legal. And as long as it's consensual, both parties agree to it, that's that's absolutely we want to enable that or facilitate that. But if it's not consensual or if something goes wrong, then we want, we absolutely want to have a system in place so that it cannot.[00:41:00]

Arik Brueckner: be repeated so that it cannot happen again. And about the loneliness topic, absolutely right. We would never want to position ourselves as a cure for loneliness. That is a way more difficult problem to solve like, like you mentioned. But We, we would like paid companionship to become sort of an intervention mechanism or, an alternative until you get there.

Arik Brueckner: So if you have two states, either isolate yourself more or pay for a service. To help you get back into society, even if you pay for having coffee or going to a theater or having, a meal together, at least you're going out and you're among people. And the other person, because it's a service, it's not a date we'll also try to [00:42:00] understand what it is that you, that you want.

Arik Brueckner: Why are you, why are you requesting this service? Why do you need companionship? In a. In a non scientific way, right? It's not, this is not a, a replacement for, for, for for a therapist, but it's just, helping you get there and then potentially helping you also get back into a state where you can foster social connections more, well, like without having a service, like naturally.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I agree. I also want to offer this. I'm thinking about this time, because I'm a licensed massage therapist as well. There was this client that came to me, and this girl, I think, had suffered some sort of abuse at the hands of a man. And she requested a massage. I met her out working about in the city somewhere.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I guess it was something about [00:43:00] my vibe that made her feel like she could trust me. But when she came for the massage, she chose to keep her entire work uniform on down to the shoes. If I remember correctly, as a massage therapist, I'm trained to massage however a person presents. So they want to be fully nude, to fully clothed, whatever.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And she just laid there like in this fetal like position. For this massage and I, and I didn't ask her about her trauma is not my position to ask. I could just sense this and it was a really brave and bold step for her to take and she used that massage as a way to, to lean into that darkness and the lean into that trauma and attempt to overcome it by having a man that she trusted to touch her again after whatever wrong was done to her.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And now I can see this working in that same space. I want to offer this idea to people if you've been traumatized. In whatever way by certain gender, hiring somebody to lay next to [00:44:00] you and with your clothes on. I'm not promoting sex, but is a way to get next to that energy and maybe to get used to it and to try to overcome it and turn to face it, as a means to heal trauma that came back to my mind.

De'Vannon Seráphino: But you got to be careful with your intentions. To me, there's a when we take our clothes off. We're stripping our protections away and things like that. So I've really devised a line at anything sexual, but all the other stuff using it to heal, overcome trauma for introverts, trying to overcome introverts and are being too much of a homebody to, you can really alchemize this sort of.

De'Vannon Seráphino: App and really transmute it to do something positive for yourself. And then you can take and show up to your relationships better because people, some people might not have the boldness to [00:45:00] just do this sort of thing, or may not live in a place. With a certain population where they can

De'Vannon Seráphino: with anything is how you choose to use it. But I can see a lot of healing being offered here. People approach this the right way. 

Arik Brueckner: Yeah. And I think that's why so that's why we put a lot of focus on the verification process of providers. So with all of the providers, we, I have personally chatted at least as part of the verification process with lots of them, I've had video calls.

Arik Brueckner: And some of them as part of the, like the verification, I've, I've even had a coffee or lunch with just to understand what the motivation is, but also to get feedback for the platform, but also to hear stories and. It's, it's interesting you mentioned this, this, this, this client of [00:46:00] yours, when you were a massage practitioner, I, in a, in a face to face interview that I had with a, with a trans provider on our platform, I heard a very similar, a very similar case where she would be the massage therapist.

Arik Brueckner: And then one of, one of her clients, was also going through trauma. And then because this was a service based setting in a in a private practice, that was actually a massage practice surrounded by physiotherapists, she felt comfortable, step by step. Getting connected or used to physical touch again, but at her own pace.

Arik Brueckner: And I think that's, that's really the critical thing. If it's a service, [00:47:00] you can, you can moderate or dictate the pace you're going, which is, I guess, much harder on a dating app or on a, on a casual non service. interaction or date because the other party has interests too. And if, if you consume something as a service the, the attention is all on you and, and it's about your needs and your pace and, your quality experience.

Arik Brueckner: And, yeah, so. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Yeah. I mean, and that is, but there's no different than a psychiatrist, a hypnotherapist, a massage therapist, It's all somebody you're hiring for a service to help you feel better. Yeah, we're trained and shit like that. But if the intention of this person you're hiring is to help you heal and you communicate that, I don't think us hypnotherapists, massage [00:48:00] therapists have any room to judge or look down upon it if it's being approached from, from, from a person trying to come up higher within themselves.

De'Vannon Seráphino: . 

De'Vannon Seráphino: And I 

Arik Brueckner: guess, and I guess that that's a little bit what the verification process does somebody who just wants to get an ad published as fast as possible then make, make some money and then get off the app again. Wouldn't go through the choice verification process because it's, it's too much effort.

Arik Brueckner: So so actually the, the providers that we have. They are, they understand what we're doing about what we want to do about the market. They understand our mission. They're oftentimes like very experienced. They do this for like five years, 10 years. So, so yeah, I mean, I guess the, really the, the quality and.

Arik Brueckner: Genuity [00:49:00] of, of the providers is really important here. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Absolutely. Then the last thing before we switch over into our dad jokes, I was reading an interesting article on the website choice. ch, which will go in the show notes. Talking about the history of sex work going all the way back 2400 B. C. in Babylon.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I, I hear it often where people are like, prostitution and sex work is the oldest profession and so on and so forth. Y'all, if sex work is your thing, then that's your thing, but just because it's been around forever doesn't, like, It doesn't either justify it or, or criminalize it when people say that they're usually trying to like justify it, but that's not the case and your article was talking about how it was tied to the Babylonians and the worship of deities and different things like that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So, just be, just, just know who and what the portion of divinity you believe in and why, and be [00:50:00] sure that if you're going to do sex work that it squares with who and what you believe. It does not square with Yahweh, because I believe in the Hebrew God, and we don't fuck with that, but Clearly it worked for the Babylonians.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So, if you're gonna do it, be prayerful about it. Be sure that it squares with what you believe spiritually. Most of the sex workers and people I know either have vague spirituality. They don't really believe in anything at all. And they seem to be on a journey with that. They're my good friends. I hang out with them.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I don't judge them. I don't look down upon them. But I always encourage them like, girl, you got it. I don't necessarily tell them to stop the sex work. I just be like, but you do need to get clear on what you believe spiritually, because you're not always going to be in this physical form. And so yes, sex work has been around for a while.

De'Vannon Seráphino: If you feel like it's your thing, you're going to go ahead and do it, but always be refining what you believe spiritually, because you won't to always be here. And as you get closer to the divine, they'll tell you what to keep and what to [00:51:00] let go, but just be serious about that too. And I, 

Arik Brueckner: and I think, I think you're, you're touching up on a very important topic.

Arik Brueckner: I think it's also really, really important. The word consent is thrown around a lot. It's actually something. quite complex to figure out for yourself, especially in paid companionship. And it can change a lot and it can change by customer. That's for example, why part of the behavioral guidelines are that consent can be withdrawn at any time.

Arik Brueckner: You can never, you never know how the provider is going to react to the client and the client is going to react to the provider once they meet. So, I think it's, it's, it's an exercise for for yourself to [00:52:00] understand where your boundaries are, what you actually would like to do, what you would not like to do for both sides as a, like on the client side, but also on the provider side and then continuously.

Arik Brueckner: Observe that and continuously decide for yourself is this still okay? Am I still okay with that? Do I want to not offer a certain service anymore, but another service, et cetera. So this can change and it can change over time, but it can also change on a, on a, on a per client basis to some clients, you may, feel comfortable offering a wider range of services than, than to others.

Arik Brueckner: And, and so that is an exercise that is extremely important. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Mm hmm. Who would have thought so much depth could depth could be [00:53:00] derived from something like sex work. You see y'all, it's not, that's more to the industry than meets the eyes. So, I'll go ahead and let you have the last word before I ask you these dad jokes, Arik.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Is there anything you'd like to say to the people finally, either about your company, your point of view, any words of advice, anything at all? 

Arik Brueckner: Well, I mean, the most precious thing for us right now is feedback, criticism. Praise opinions. So, check out choice. ch and if you come across anything that you think we could do better, let us know we are very approachable.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Now today's dad jokes come to us from today. com. Dad joke number one, Arik, is why shouldn't you [00:54:00] tell I'm already nervous. Why? Oh, there's no need to be nervous. Why shouldn't you tell secrets in a cornfield?

Arik Brueckner: Well, of course, because the, the corn would go bad then. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Nah, silly, because there's too many ears. 

Arik Brueckner: Wow. I'm terrible at this. I, I, it's a backflash to my, to, to my old company where, where, where I was always put in this position to, to answer knock, knock jokes or come up with I would never manage, but okay.

Arik Brueckner: Let's try another one. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: He's traumatized from knock, knock jokes. Who knew this? 

Arik Brueckner: A little bit, a little bit. Yeah. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Okay. And these are people will really answer these better they're like high on shrooms or weed or some shit then [00:55:00] they would like get it instantly around. Okay, what did the beach say when the tide came in?

Arik Brueckner: Well, I have no idea. I'm really absolutely terrible at this. It's okay. Wow, they're don't get too wet, I don't know. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: That's cute, that's cute. He said long time no see. Aww. Okay, and then the last one. What kind of felines, like what kind of cats can bowl or are good at bowling? 

Arik Brueckner: What kind of cats are good at bowling?

Arik Brueckner: I guess round ones.[00:56:00]

De'Vannon Seráphino: We do like us a good fat cat, but nah, alley cats. Wow, 

Arik Brueckner: nice.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Okay. 

Arik Brueckner: Okay. I felt this portion of the entire episode was, was made, was way more like, was putting me way more into spot than than everything before. But, 

De'Vannon Seráphino: that's funny. 

Arik Brueckner: I love this. Yeah. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: So y'all, his website, like you said, is choice.

De'Vannon Seráphino: ch that will go in. The show notes, as it always does, Arik, thank you for your beautiful mind, your beautiful energy, your open heart of compassion, and for doing your part to make the world of sex work a bit more safer. 

Arik Brueckner: Thank you so much for having me. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Thank you all so much for joining us today and for taking some time to invest into yourself and into the lives of your loved ones, please visit us at sex drugs and jesus. com and check [00:57:00] out our resource page, our spiritual service offerings, my blog, my books, and other writings that God has partnered with me to create.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Find us on any social media platform, stay strong, my people, and just remember that everything is going to be all right. [00:58:00]