Episode #180: Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors' Stories of Conversion Therapy, with Lucas Wilson

INTRODUCTION:

In this episode of the 'Sex, Drugs, and Jesus' podcast, host De’Vannon Seráphino introduces Lucas Frederick William Wilson, a conversion therapy survivor and post-doctoral fellow at the University of Calgary. Lucas discusses his upcoming book, 'Shame, Sex, Attraction: Survivors' Stories of Conversion Therapy,' which compiles harrowing stories from individuals who have endured conversion practices. The episode delves into Lucas's personal experiences, the emotional and editorial challenges in compiling the book, and broader themes of spirituality and mental health. Lucas reads an excerpt from his book, sharing a poignant and often humorous account of his time at Liberty University. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of religious shame, the healing journey of survivors, and the controversial figures associated with Liberty University. The episode concludes with a light-hearted segment of dad jokes.

Playlists: https://music.apple.com/profile/DeVannonSeraphino

Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

·      Conversion Therapy Stories.

·      Liberty University/Jerry Falwell Tea.

·      Indirect/Subtle Conversion Therapy.

·      Addiction/Self-Harm.

·      Have You Ever REALLY Known God?

·      Do You Think You Know Better Than God?

CONNECT WITH LUCAS WILSON:

Website: https://ucalgary.academia.edu/LucasWilson

Amazon: https://shorturl.at/M534h

IN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucas-wilson-2a0753b1/

X: https://x.com/wilson_fw

CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON SERÁPHINO:

TikTok: https://shorturl.at/nqyJ4

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Email: SDJPodcastNewYork@Gmail.com

Thanks for listening!!! Please follow us on YouTube + TikTok @SexDrugsAndJesusPodcast

Transcript

Episode #180: Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors' Stories of Conversion Therapy, with Lucas Wilson

 

De'Vannon Seráphino: [00:00:00] Hello all of you wonderful sexy souls out there. Welcome back to the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus podcast. My name is De'Vannon Seráphino. This handsome stud sitting over here next to me, his name is Lucas Frederick William Wilson. But we will call him Lucas. throughout this episode here. He is in Canada.

De'Vannon Seráphino: That's why he has so many damn names, which I think is fucking awesome, because you're only going to pass through this life once. And if you're not going to be extra about it, then why are you even bothering? Lucas, how are you? Terrible. Thank you 

Lucas Wilson: for asking. Next question. No, I'm very well, thank you. I'm very glad to be here.

Lucas Wilson: Thank you so much for for having me on. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Fuck yeah, yeah. Lucas is the editor and contributing author to a book that's coming out in January of 2025, January 21st, if I still have those dates correct, and it is called Shame, Shame, Sex, Attraction, Survivors, Stories of Conversion Therapy. Lucas is a victim of conversion therapy.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I had a near miss with that when I was at Lakewood Church in [00:01:00]Houston, Texas. These people have run wild with thinking they can tell other people how to live short little quick snippet on Lucas's bio. Then we'll talk about the overshare of this bug. He's doctor Lucas Wilson, by the way, is the justice equity and transformation post doctorate fellow at University of Calgary.

De'Vannon Seráphino: As a former evangelical and a survivor of conversion therapy, he is the editor of Shame, Sex, Attraction, Survivor Stories of Conversion Therapy, which is going to be published by JKP Books. There's a collection of short stories about conversion therapy written by conversion therapy survivors. Lucas's works have been in Popular names that you know, like the Advocate LGBTQ Nation.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Don't we love them for the filth that they provide those publications as well as the good information. They cater to all spectrums and certainly they do not judge. Rip Rouse! You're Rip Rouse. Hey, there's a [00:02:00] flavor for everything. So putting all of these stories together, how many stories are going to be in the book?

Lucas Wilson: So there are 17 chapters in total, plus an introduction and afterward. And then, forward by, by Gary Connolly, who's the author of Boy Erased and probably the most well known conversion therapy survivor and author about his experience. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: And also, y'all, Lucas's his Twitter information is linked in and his website.

De'Vannon Seráphino: You see Calgary that academia that E. D. U. slash Lucas Wilson. We're all going to show notes. Conversion therapy is a terrible fucking thing to go through is very difficult. And I know that it can be hard to get people to tell their story. And you got several people to do this. Talk to me about how gut wrenching this was.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I want to hear about the emotion that had to go into this. Because when you write a [00:03:00] book, you have to write it, then you have to go back and re edit it. And so basically you're giving yourself exposure therapy and re ripping those wounds over time and time again. You're also healing them at the same time.

De'Vannon Seráphino: What did you experience in dealing with all of these different authors? 

Lucas Wilson: Yeah, I mean, I think the first part of my response would be the fact that so many stories that I would have loved to have included just weren't even offered because so many people don't have the emotional capacity, the desire, the The sort of wherewithal to even write these stories.

Lucas Wilson: So many folks who underwent conversion therapy don't even come to approach their story because it's, in a lot of ways, they don't have the terms to put to paper. And I think that that's the crazy thing about so many of these experiences. Of queer oppression that, you know, not just within Conversion Therapy and beyond, but also beyond, that you have so many people who have undergone so many things who will never know those stories.

Lucas Wilson: [00:04:00] So first of all, these are just the stories that were told and there are so many again that will forever be, or perhaps at least right now, be untold. And so, actually coming to the stories when they were submitted, You know, there were more stories that were submitted than that were included, and there's this whole sort of editorial process that you kind of go through and think through and you know, talk to, I have an editor on top of me, and so talking with, with them about you know, which stories to include and which ones not to include, but the ones that I included and when I decided, okay, these are the, the stories that will be part of the collection, it was very difficult.

Lucas Wilson: I mean, A number of them, you know, especially if you were saying that editing and that re editing process that, you know, for some of the stories it was maybe the second or third attempt and that was when, you know, the story was quote unquote done and ready for the editor to see them. Other stories it took more, right?

Lucas Wilson: It took more editing and drafting of the documents, or of the, of the stories themselves in order to get them to a [00:05:00] place that was publishable. So. So that process, you know, for some people it was, it was, it was difficult for them in the sense that, you know, these are their stories. These are their words.

Lucas Wilson: And of course, anything we write, anything we put forward into the world is personal. And when you do that and someone comes along, Like me, who, for a lot of these folks, was a complete stranger you know, editing their work. They thought, you know, well, who are you to say this? Who are you to edit this and, you know, change my story?

Lucas Wilson: But of course, it's this very sensitive, delicate dance or balance that you have to sort of strike when you're going through other people's work and, of course, you have to be incredibly sensitive to people's Not just their stories, but also their emotions and their feelings and their responses, because they're all valid, obviously, and so that was difficult, but actually thinking about the content of these stories when I was reading them, you know, when it was just me and my computer, you know, reading these stories, it was, it was tough because you have a lot of people.

Lucas Wilson: Things that you just forget about, you know, I, [00:06:00] there was one author and I was reading his story and he was talking about the, the sort of mental gymnastics that he had to perform when showering. And what I mean by that is that within, you know, evangelicalism and, you know, within the new Christian right more broadly and also more specifically within, you know conversion therapy context, What we're told is that, you know, the showering is this moment of, of, how do you say of possible temptation, right?

Lucas Wilson: That you're in this stall, you're naked and you have to wash yourself and touching yourself might arouse you. And then, you know, For most people, they wouldn't even think twice about that, but for Christians and for those specifically who are going through conversion therapy, they're taught to really fear their body in a lot of ways, right?

Lucas Wilson: That this is a moment of potential, of opening yourself up to the enemy, to the devil, to Satan, potentially. And when reading this story about this, again, that sort of anxiety about just showering, doing something as [00:07:00] commonplace and mundane as showering, that sort of thing. It was, it brought me back to when I was in this headspace, when I was undergoing conversion therapy and beyond, because conversion therapy doesn't just end once you've finished meeting with a person or people or a group or a camp or whatever.

Lucas Wilson: It goes well beyond that, and the enduring consequences of conversion therapy oftentimes are felt and experienced much later on. So, nonetheless, reading this man's story, I was, I was taken aback and I was taken back to the time when I was in this, this, this headspace. And it's rough because you do your best to forget a lot of it.

Lucas Wilson: You do your best to move on past it or come to terms with it. But I think that when you have these moments that you've in some ways, either forgotten, Unintentional or willfully blocked out of your mind when they're reanimated for you by way of reading a story like these stories that I was reading.

Lucas Wilson: It, it's tough. It's not easy. [00:08:00] And it, it was an emotional process throughout. And so reading that story as well as the other stories, and again, some stories that were super similar to my experience and others that were so far from my experience. Nonetheless, I think reading these stories, what it really brought up for me was how broad a category that, you know, conversion therapy or conversion practices, which is really the language that a lot of people use nowadays, I just use conversion therapy because it's more recognizable by a general public, but conversion practices, how broad these practices really are across faith traditions, across time, across 

Lucas Wilson: you know it's not just sitting in, you know, a, a room with a, a quote unquote counselor. It can also be with parents. It can also be by yourself. It can also be online. There are so many different expressions of conversion practices or moments or instances of conversion practices that when I was reading these stories, that really was one of the main things that I took away was how many people have undergone these undergone conversion practices.

Lucas Wilson: And in some cases didn't know it until many years later.[00:09:00]

De'Vannon Seráphino: Well, so that sounds like therapy to me, which is what books are. Like, one of the surprising things is being an author myself now two times over, you just get healed in the process. And it's also the same thing with being a podcast host. Taking time to deal with other people's stories heals them. It helps to heal you by dealing with other people's stories.

De'Vannon Seráphino: That's the way energy flows. Giving enough of a damn to help somebody like that, that's very good karma that you have set aside for yourself, young Luke. And, I want you to to, to read your two page, roughly four minute personal conversion therapy. So y'all, Lucas is about to read for us his personal conversion therapy story.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And so just get comfortable because it's going to be a couple of minutes, but it's going to be so [00:10:00] worth it because you need to know the flavor and tone of this book and where we're, where we're coming from and why we think it's so important. Lucas, take us away. 

Lucas Wilson: So I should give a little preface, if that's okay, just that, if this is a story that's around, I think, in the actual text, I think it's 11 pages.

Lucas Wilson: So this is, this is just the quick beginning of it. There's a lot more to it. It's divided into two. This is only part of the first section. But this will give you a little bit of an idea of how I go about talking about my conversion therapy experience. And I do oftentimes use humor to talk about my experience.

Lucas Wilson: A lot of people don't. Some people do. Obviously it's, you know, individual to the individual or specific to the individual. And so this is, this is how I start my story. My story, and again, you'll, I think, I hope that you'll hear some of the, the humor in it. And I think humor is again one way of sort of negotiating or navigating, you know, working through this, how [00:11:00] do you say in the academic sort of, you know, these bullshitting.

Lucas Wilson: So my, the story's entitled Gay Christian Speed Dating, and this is about my experience in group conversion therapy at Liberty University. So here we go. Enough of the preface, just get into it. Here we go! What do you think the guys in the group are going to be like? I asked as I pushed my tray forward and took the last bite of my supper. I'm honestly so curious to find out, Thad said, his cat eyes glinting. He sat back in his chair and lifted his veiny arms behind his head. His dark armpit hair peeked out from under his t shirt.

Lucas Wilson: I couldn't stop staring. Was he wearing deodorant? I wondered. All I wanted to do was stick my nose in his pits, inhale, and inhale deeply. Thad and I were sitting in Liberty's cafeteria. Liberty University, the evangelical college that touted itself as the world's most exciting university, was where we had both chosen to study, and like our peers, we wanted to receive a Christian education in order to, upon graduation, set the world on fire for Jesus.

Lucas Wilson: It was the [00:12:00] second or third time Thad and I had hung out. We had met when Steph, the galley, was half heartedly trying to pursue at the time, suggested he and I connect. When I told Steph that I was more attractive to guys than women, to my surprise she didn't hide it entirely. Instead, she thought I could speak with her friend Thad, someone who also struggled with same sex attraction and who, she said, could potentially help me figure out my desire for men.

Lucas Wilson: When she had first told me about him, I secretly hoped he would be handsome. Even though I believed I wanted to become straight, not to mention sexually pure, my hormones were nonetheless raging. So, when Thad and I eventually met up, I was delighted to find out that he was, in fact, a major babe. Thad was one of the few guys, like me, I knew personally on campus.

Lucas Wilson: With the exception of one friend I'd met early on in my time at Liberty, there were only a couple of others I had known who also dealt with same sex attraction. One was my spiritual life director at my freshman dorm, with whom I had an incredibly bizarre one night stand, and who stopped talking to me immediately thereafter.

Lucas Wilson: It was because of my [00:13:00] short trip with my spiritual life director that I initially met went to meet with Pastor Dane Emmerich, the man on campus who promised to help male students who were struggling with same sex attraction, and the man who was leading the group Thad and I were to attend that evening.

Lucas Wilson: At the time I hooked up with my spiritual life director, I felt that I had no one else to speak with at a university that fined, punished, and even expelled students for acting on their same sex attractions. So when Steph introduced Thad and me, I was relieved to meet someone else who shared my struggle.

Lucas Wilson: But the flesh was weak, and I could only hope that it was for him too. Thad, however, was in no way interested. He talked to me as if I were his younger brother. Even though I was always down for some good old fashioned roleplay, it was clear that Thad was not, at least not with me. I'll leave it there.

De'Vannon Seráphino: The horror stories I've heard coming out of Christian universities are on par with the horror stories coming out of churches. It's the same oppressive [00:14:00] energy and spirits that prevail over both, and then that trickles down into the staff, and they pick staff that are going to reinforce that, and then it trickles down into the students, and because the energy is there, it's so prevalent, and it's difficult to detect.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Because it's everywhere. And then when we see the same energy everywhere in our, in our subconscious, it tends to validate it, even though it's not,

De'Vannon Seráphino: how did you, how are you able to, I guess, undo or get healed from the conversion from the conversion therapy energy or process?

Lucas Wilson: So, for me, I went straight from Liberty University, which, again, I, I briefly introduced in the story, but it's the world's largest evangelical university located in Lynchburg, Virginia, there's more to say about that, but we'll put that aside for now, and, [00:15:00] I went under, I was under, I underwent conversion therapy for four years.

Lucas Wilson: That group experience that I detail in that story, and again we don't even get to the group experience, I was still sitting in the cafeteria by the time I, you know, ended that excerpt, but I go into detail about what it was like to go into the group and how bizarre it was, and then the consequences of going to that group, and I was specifically someone I met in the group, and But putting that aside, I was in conversion therapy for four years in one on one meetings with the man Mr.

Lucas Wilson: Dane Emmerich, who was the in house conversion therapist on campus. And so, for me, I graduated from Liberty in 2012, and then I was in grad school for three years, and then I took a year off and I taught for a year, and then I resumed my graduate studies after that for six years, and then have been in research since.

Lucas Wilson: And so, With that being said, I truly and honestly believe that what saved me and what allowed me to work through a lot of what [00:16:00] happened to me was by way of academic study. And the beautiful thing for me was that I took, it wasn't just academic study, it was also, I entered into divinity school which was very much this academic approach to spirituality, and for me, I was able to take a number of courses that were not just academic or, you know, appealing to the mind, but they were also appealing to the heart.

Lucas Wilson: They were allowing me to work through you know, personal and private matters, while also approaching these topics by way of scholarship. And so, for me, I think that it was really thinking and thinking deeply about a lot of these topics, and then feeling and feeling deeply a lot of these topics. I think that time and that space to approach what happened to me, You know, very concentrated and thoughtful and also mindful maybe demure, I don't know, maybe not demure sort of approach to, to these topics.

Lucas Wilson: And so I think that was [00:17:00] really my saving grace. And then of course, also going to therapy on top of that for a while I think compounded the, what I would like to think is the healing process of, of working through and coming to terms what happened to me in conversion therapy. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Were you ever, I was snickering while you were talking for a moment because as you were talking it dawned on me that this is Jerry Falwell's fucking school.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And then I, that I, that I wanted to go over to Google and look up something real quick, which I'm going to talk about. I was like, wait a minute, it's ringing a bell over here. And so did you, the whole, this is a whole ass of a can of worms. Were you ever suicidal? Did you ever do any self harm? I never, I never did, 

Lucas Wilson: thankfully.

Lucas Wilson: You know, I've never had, I've never, how do I say this? Mental health issues run [00:18:00] deep in my family. However, I've never felt like I've struggled with mental health issues. Of course, maybe, you know that might sound bizarre after just talking about the consequences and the negative effects of converted therapy, but that's not What happened to me in conversion therapy didn't affect me to such a level that I developed, you know, clinical depression or clinical anxiety or anything like that.

Lucas Wilson: There were negative, and I mean really negative, consequences like shame, like anxiety, like you know, guilt self hatred, this kind of stuff, but that I do not and probably never will constitute, at least in my estimation, mental health issues. Which, you know, I think oftentimes the symptom of these mental health issues are, you know, self harm and, and, and suicidal ideation.

Lucas Wilson: And I don't, I've never struggled with that. I've always been able to sort of, handle what happened to me in a way that didn't lead me to, [00:19:00] to feel like I wanted to take my life or that I wanted to hurt myself. And I think really largely the reason for that is the support systems that I've had outside of the church.

Lucas Wilson: I don't come from a Christian family. My siblings are all we were all raised in a non Christian home, but we went to church every so often. They especially went to church at the youngest of five. And if you can see here, this is, this is the Wilson family here in the back of my cell phone I'm showing.

Lucas Wilson: And very close to my siblings. I wasn't always, and when I was in conversion therapy, I was not close to my siblings per se. Maybe my sister, but not so much my brothers. But in the years after it, when I really did start working through it, is when I really latched on to my family as a support system.

Lucas Wilson: And I've I've been really, really lucky to have them. And also just having good pals you know outside the church. A few who are still within the church, they're Christians and but nonetheless for my sexuality isn't an issue for them, for which I'm, again, quite grateful. [00:20:00] It's kind of a baseline thing that they don't have an issue with me, but nonetheless, they don't and we're thankful for those folks.

Lucas Wilson: So I think because of the support systems I've had, I've not struggled with the two issues that you named. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Any addictions? And if not you, then anybody in the book. Is there any self harm? Do we have any addictions going on? 

Lucas Wilson: Yeah, there, there are a number of folks who have who struggle with suicidal ideation.

Lucas Wilson: There are a number of folks who talk about mental health issues. Whether that be addiction or perhaps other, you know, forms of, yeah, other, other issues. I think that what we find with a lot of people is that there are a lot of commonalities. And again, like, because the title's named Shame, Sex, Attraction, and the number one cited consequence of conversion therapy, but also the number one thing that brings people into conversion [00:21:00] therapy is shame.

Lucas Wilson: So there are a lot of things that are psychological, emotional, spiritual, some might say consequences. And we do see that play out in a number of ways, like you said, with addiction, with other problems. And I think the beautiful thing about this, the collection though, is that a lot of the people who I, who are, who are included, pardon me, all who are included, have really found a place in their life, lives now, where they are doing really well for themselves.

Lucas Wilson: However, what I actually explicitly was looking for, was for people to write stories that didn't necessarily end with that ribbon on the end. Right, where everything's fine, everything's good, you know, all is well and God is on her throne. No, I didn't want that. I wanted people to write stories that left readers with a sense of what it was like to be in conversion therapy.

Lucas Wilson: Of course, no one's ever going to know what it's like unless you're in it, but I wanted their stories to end in a place that not where everything's tied together and again, there's some sort of narrative resolution, but instead to sit with the discomfort, what was it like for those of us who went through it, [00:22:00] and to sit there and say, huh?

Lucas Wilson: Like, yes, the story ends here. And obviously the person who wrote it is most likely, you know, in a better place now. But I didn't want to give them that sort of. What's the word? A gift in a way. I wanted people to sit with stories that really left them in the space that these people were left once they finished conversion therapy.

Lucas Wilson: And also, you know, the space that they, they continued to occupy years after.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Very good. Speak about the overall flavor of where people are now. Are they still in church? Are they like, fuck God, don't want anything to do with that. They become atheists. Are they like dominatrices now? What's going on? 

Lucas Wilson: Wish I could report that they were all, yeah, in the BDSM community, however I don't know if that'd be accurate, but you know, I don't, I actually don't know what a lot of these folks do behind closed doors, and I haven't asked, but who knows what I will say is that a lot [00:23:00] of these people are doing really well.

Lucas Wilson: I can think of a few. Who are really fabulous advocates for queer, to the queer community. I can think of Jordan Sullivan, who does a lot of phenomenal work in Canada, as it relates to conversion therapy specifically. I can think of you know, Jenna Hickey and their work, you know, they do across Canada and internationally when it comes to conversion therapy and queer rights and queer issues.

Lucas Wilson: I can think of other folks who you know, this is their first time really writing about their experiences and they are, you know, working in their home state, if they're from the U. S. doing their thing. I, and I can think of people who moved to other cities because of where they were from, you know, whether it be in the South or the Midwest, you know, that they've moved to bigger cities and gone on to better things.

Lucas Wilson: And so I think the overall sort of place that a lot of these people have ended. Is in a much [00:24:00] better place than where they started, right? And for which we're very thankful. I think that people, you know, a lot of the folks in this collection have you know, they've survived and now they thrive and for a number of reasons.

Lucas Wilson: And I think that, again, it really goes back to finding solid queer community, which actually the research behind Conversion practices and those who have undergone it really supports that one of the best ways for survivors of conversion therapy to thrive is to find a community, especially a queer community, but also not only queer communities, but others, you know, who are supportive and who listen and have allowed for them to have the space to talk about this and to think about this.

Lucas Wilson: And I think that the book, the collection itself, Shame, Sex, Attraction, I think this is hopefully one more outlet for these folks, you know, their voices to be heard.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Very, very good. And you personally, do you still attend the church or do you, where are you at with, with the big guy upstairs? Now? I just 

Lucas Wilson: realized 

De'Vannon Seráphino: I totally 

Lucas Wilson: didn't answer [00:25:00] part of your question, which was like the spiritual aspect. I'm so sorry. Where do they land spiritually? Was that not the question? Jeez Louise.

Lucas Wilson: Okay. Pardon me from my understanding. Oh my gosh. From my understanding. I'm so sorry. I went off in a totally different direction, but from my understanding, I, a lot of the folks are not religious. I don't think that is the case for everybody. I think some of the contributors have some, some semblance of a relationship to God, whether it be more private and confessional rather than public and communal.

Lucas Wilson: I don't really know. But, my, my sort of what's the word? My impression is that a lot of people have left the church. I think three stories were not from Christian backgrounds. One was from a, an Orthodox Jewish background, one was from a secular background, and one was from what the author describes as a, a cult.

Lucas Wilson: And so those three folks, I think all three of [00:26:00] them are non religious. But the, for those who come from the evangelical and white Christian fundamentalist and charismatic backgrounds, Most, I understand, are now out of those faith traditions, but again, I don't want to speak for anyone because I don't, I don't actually know.

Lucas Wilson: I can't say completely confidently, but all around. As for me I am no longer a person of faith. I was for a long time, I was up until about, goodness maybe age 26, 27 in, in and around there, but for me, it actually wasn't, it wasn't so much my sexuality that pushed me from the church and from my faith.

Lucas Wilson: It was more so what I research and what I've researched up until this point largely has been intergenerational trauma as it relates specifically to holocaust survivors, their children and their grandchildren. And so for me, researching the holocaust, because of course, if you're going to research, you know, the intergenerational trauma, you have to understand what happened.

Lucas Wilson: And so for me, a lot of [00:27:00] my, my past research and study was in the holocaust, specifically also what led up to the holocaust. And for me, it was really researching those topics that pushed me out of my faith. And I think a lot of people will talk about, you know, how sad that is, or that I must miss it, or that I must have traded it in for something else.

Lucas Wilson: And I, I don't really think I, I do miss it. And I also really don't, I truly don't think I've traded it in for anything. Like I've given, given up one orthodoxy and embraced another. I don't think that's been my experience for me. It's been more so that I don't, I don't miss. Those things I don't miss God. I don't miss, the community because I found a really phenomenal community.

Lucas Wilson: Maybe that isn't treating it in one community for another. I don't know, but I don't really miss God. I thought I would. And I did for a long time. But at this point, I sincerely don't. I, I don't really feel like I have a need for a spiritual sort of aspect to my life and [00:28:00] maybe also what I could say is that maybe what I define as spiritual or not spiritual is different from how a lot of other folks would.

Lucas Wilson: For me, it's very much more social. It's very much more communal. I, I put a lot of investment and, time into my relationships with, you know, friends, families, friends, family, loved ones, you know, this kind of stuff. And I don't, I just don't miss it. I did for a long time, but I don't anymore. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: I wonder though, if you ever really like for real knew God in the first place, though, because the thing is church, like, like those people who you were saying now have like more like their private thing at home, but God, that's, that's a more pure form of religion than going to church because church is not.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's like our relationship with God is like any other relationship, going out on dates and being in public with whoever our significant other or others are is not nearly as intimate as when we're alone. So church [00:29:00] is not It's not, it's not about being close with God. It's not. And so many people spend a lot of time in church and many years and don't ever really know God and they know the experience of worship, the state of hypersuggestibility that, that, that happens when people go to church.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Into churches, which is overstimulation for the sake of influence being able to influence people. They know what preachers say about God. They know things like that. But that is not the same as getting to know God quiet alone away from other people's opinions away from what the people have to say away from other people's interpretation of the Bible away from the community.

De'Vannon Seráphino: That's the only time somebody can actually . Know the real God. And so, and so my question would be to you and then anybody else who, who has some like, like, you know, I don't fuck with God thing like [00:30:00] the, the origin question is did you know him, in the first place. And then if you really, really knew him, how, you know, based on what.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And if the only responses are where you went to church and you did this, the seven prayers and you went to catechism or, you know, the hail Mary's or, you know, all the saints names, all of those things that have whatever their place is, but that ain't God. So, and so just so just just think about that. 

Lucas Wilson: Yeah, I would say.

Lucas Wilson: So for me, I wasn't actually raised in the church. Again, we went to church when I was little up until about like, I don't know, like grade three, but for me that it wasn't, Sort of like a family thing that I, I held onto and, and that wasn't really my entrance into the church because it was in grade nine.

Lucas Wilson: I got really into like the creation versus evolution debate, and, and was really invested. And so I, you know, started thinking, well, if in fact I believe there's a creator who is this creator, [00:31:00] maybe it's that God that, you know, I, I, I went to worship on Sundays when I was a kid, so I went back to the church that I went to when I was a kid, and within about, I don't know, four, four-ish months.

Lucas Wilson: I think that was the time that I really, in my mind, met Jesus. And it was very personal. I mean, there was obviously, like, the community surrounding me and a lot of people, in fact, who were shaping my faith. But for me, it was super personal. It was super one on one, you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't a chore to read my Bible.

Lucas Wilson: I actually loved it. It wasn't a chore to pray or to watch sermons online or blah, blah, blah, or when I go to church, all that kind of stuff. And, but for me, it was like so exciting because I felt like I was connecting with This part of the universe that I, and the creator of the universe that I theretofore did not know, and it felt so electric, and I was considered in my youth group sort of like the small evangelist, like I went around my high school, I went to Rosedale Heights School of the Arts, [00:32:00] like so gay, but apparently it was, you know, so straight, not at all, I think everyone knew, open secret, whatever, and, but nonetheless, I, you know, I was at Rosedale Heights School of the Arts, telling all my friends, you gotta come to church with me, you gotta come to church with me, and they're all like, what the hell is this?

Lucas Wilson: Like, who's this kid? And so I was not just personally excited about God, but I, I wanted other people to know the same excitement that I had. And for me, it was super important that I told people about God. And, you know, I remember I had a, I had a high school teacher who I connected with years later and he said, Luke, He's, I, I said, I think I said to him, I was like, oh man, I was such a, you know, a dink in, in high school, and he goes, no, he goes, he goes, yeah, you were an asshole, but you were such a sweet asshole.

Lucas Wilson: He was like, you had these horrible beliefs, but you, you communicated in such a nice way, and I thought about that, like, for me, like, I really, it was like, I wanted all my friends, and I wanted all my teachers and everyone around me to know the same thing that I knew, and for me, It was it felt so real it felt more real I think than a lot of other things in my life including even my [00:33:00]sexuality, right?

Lucas Wilson: Like I thought god's more real than me being gay. And of course some people might say well, wait a second That sounds like a bad god to me and I think for me That pulling on that string of the bad god and saying okay. Well, who is this god? Who's what's the character of this god? That's where I I go all the way zoom, you know fast forward all the way to when I was, you know I am grad school and I was sitting there on my couch And at this point, I was, I don't know, I didn't really know what I thought, and I was like, well, God feels so distant at this point, I just don't know if the God that I believed in for so long really is the God that I believe in now.

Lucas Wilson: And I was sitting there and I was reading this, this one author, Elie Wiesel, he's actually a Nobel Prize, you know, recipient, survivor of the Holocaust, survivor of several concentration camps, including Auschwitz. And I was reading his work, and I was sitting there, and I was like, all of a sudden, and I, I read, I was reading his work, but it was also on, you know, on whatever, like, Instagram or whatever, and I saw that someone had posted this little, [00:34:00] whatever, stupid story, and it said something along the lines of that they were blessed, and Because God had given them a free Starbucks, you know, coffee.

Lucas Wilson: And I'm sitting there, and I'm thinking to myself, Wait a second. This person is saying that they're blessed because God gave them a free Starbucks coffee. Okay, I find that incredibly bizarre that God took time out of God's day to, you know, give this person a free Starbucks coffee. Yet, down the road, or perhaps sitting right outside of the Starbucks, would have most likely been a person who was experiencing homelessness.

Lucas Wilson: And the fact that God apparently, in this woman's imagination, had given her a coffee but not the person who was sitting there, that to me, I was like, wait a second, do I believe in a God that would do that? Do I believe that God's out there giving free Starbucks coffees to people who don't need them and yet withholding those from others?

Lucas Wilson: Because if we do believe that gifts are given from God, those are free gifts. And those are actually those are willful actions on God's part, right? Like these are, God has chosen to give whoever, you know, a coffee. That's an active decision on God's part. But that would therefore presuppose that [00:35:00] whoever is not getting a coffee is, you know, that God is withholding that coffee from them.

Lucas Wilson: And that's also a willful decision. So God's choosing in one moment to give coffee here, but not choosing in this moment to give someone who needs coffee even more, and a lot more than just a coffee, And I was like, dear Lord, is that, is that really, is that what, is that the God that I believe in, that God is a giver of good gifts, but yet withholds gifts from those who deserve them and need them more.

Lucas Wilson: And that for me was, and then again, and then I connected it to the Holocaust. And I started thinking about theodicy and questions of evil and reconciling. How do I say that God is good, but God didn't do X, Y, and Z during the Holocaust, during this moment here to pick your moment in history. And that, for me, was where I started questioning the goodness and the character of God in a way that I hadn't really before.

Lucas Wilson: And maybe these are questions I should have considered a long time before this. However, this was my dream, and this was when it sort of came up for me. All in this moment, while reading about the Holocaust, and reading this, [00:36:00] you know, Instagram, whatever, sort of, post. It all came together in such a way that I thought to myself, Well, I just don't think that God acts or that if God does act, then God's not good.

Lucas Wilson: And that for me was a really difficult moment that really imploded my faith or exploded my faith. I don't know whatever the metaphor is. And I think for me, it wasn't that I didn't believe in God or didn't know God. In fact, I felt so often that God was my closest ally for so long. I think it was just that when I eventually realized that I don't believe that there is a being out there who does or is what I thought that being did or was, that I, I just couldn't, I couldn't, for me, reconcile that with, with believing in God anymore.

Lucas Wilson: And the way that I did, I'm not, and I'm not saying that God's not, doesn't exist. I actually think God does exist. I don't know who or what God is, but, you know, And I don't think God even cares about who or what I am, but I do believe that there's something, I just don't know if I can ever [00:37:00] name it and therefore claim it.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I hear you on that. I would caution this, and this is to the rest of you out there in the world too, and I was actually just speaking about this on one of my solo episodes. Be careful with how the mind works, because it's, we have a lot of subtle constructs that we set up in our mind. And sometimes we have things that, are working against us that we can't really see how.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So when we, whenever I hear somebody speak along this, this, this train of energy here. What I'm hearing you say is you've assessed something according to your point of view, and you don't like what God did, but, you know, that's in effect saying you think that, you know, better or you would have done it a different way.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And then the thing about approaching a divine being is that we don't, and that's the whole point of it all. So we have to [00:38:00] have, like. A large degree of humility, and we can't let hubris, or pride, which can sneak in very subtly, and our emotionalism, and us wanting to be good humans and good humanitarians, creep up, creep up, creep up in us and present as something beneficial to us, when really that hubris can take our feet out from under, under us, but it will present As I wanted to be kind and open hearted and caring to people, but it's going to snatch a relationship with the divine away because in that moment, your hubris posed as benevolence.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's going to put you in a position of exalting yourself above God, and it's going to make you feel like you're doing good because you're going forth in this righteous vengeance. But at the end of the day, God is above and we're below, which is a beautiful thing. Now, your example of the woman at Starbucks who could be feeding a coffee addiction that is ruining her marriage, and we don't know that.[00:39:00]

De'Vannon Seráphino: And, and the and the homeless person outside who might have a caffeine sensitivity, and we don't know that, or he, they could be homeless by choice. I've been homeless now twice. I know the stories of why people end up out there and not everybody is unhappy or miserable. Some of them have chosen that because it's giving them fucking peace relative to the life they used to have.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So what God has that we do not as a full 360 view in past, present and future. And so we must be careful when we get onto these tangents of why didn't God do what we think he should have done and just monitor our emotions and really be sure that we're because anytime we come from heightened or spiked emotions is usually not going to render any sort of logic or reason we have to stay calm and really look at it very objectively and to be sure that we're not projecting like [00:40:00]ourselves into it or pain or anything like that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Okay. So that we don't let, don't let our hubris come up like that. People do this, even not referring to God, they're referring to other people, that I would have done that, that way, why didn't they do it? Republicans do that shit all the time, you know, like, why, why don't they act like I act, you know, why didn't they do what I would have done?

De'Vannon Seráphino: I know, I know best here. Look at what's happening. Look at what's happening. We don't really like, like, we know, as far as we know, as far as our life experiences, but we don't know a part of our whole path is to learn ourselves the best we can. So we damn sure don't know that much about other people's dynamics or what should have happened.

De'Vannon Seráphino: We just don't, and when we, when we let go of that, then we can accept, you know, the fact that God does love us and we can let that rage and that anger and that bitterness go because it, because it's just, it's not, it's not, it's hurting. It's not really [00:41:00] serving us, even though it feels like strength and something righteous to do in the moment.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's, it's very subtle. It's a very strong trick of, of, of the evil out there to, to, to play that upon people. Are 

Lucas Wilson: you calling me a Republican? 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Don't you 

Lucas Wilson: dare! No, and I hear what you're saying, I hear what you're saying. And I think for me, like, it wasn't so much like an emotional, it actually, what is, there's this one line, and I, it's one of the most, sort of haunting lines from the literature, and I can't even remember it apparently, apparently not that haunting, but I, I can't remember at this point, but it says like, The universe doesn't end with, like, a bang, it ends with a whimper.

Lucas Wilson: And for me, like, my faith didn't end with a bang. Like, it wasn't this emotional sort of, like, oh, fuck you, God. It was more so just this whimper. It was kind of like, oh, that's that. And I think for me, I don't know, and I hear what you're saying, [00:42:00] like, I have to have a certain level of hubris, or I think that I'm better than God.

Lucas Wilson: But I do think to myself, like, there's, if you've ever seen God on Trial, it's this film, again, not to bring it back to the Holocaust, but there's this, it's this BBC film that was put forth, and it's these inmates in a, in an Auschwitz, I believe, and they're putting God on Trial, and I just think to myself, like, if anyone has to give an account for so much, it's God.

Lucas Wilson: And again, this sounds like a, who am I to say this as a human, but, and that, you know, oftentimes there's the verse that's thrown around, you know, God's ways are higher than mine. But I find that to be somewhat of a cop out. Like, I was listening to a debate a few days ago, it was with these two, I guess, atheists or agnostics, maybe more better, agnostics speaking to this evangelical guy.

Lucas Wilson: And they were talking to him about you know but slavery in that, you know, how in the world could the Bible, you know, in the Hebrew Bible, what many call the Old Testament, how could [00:43:00] God allow for slavery? And then later on, we see, of course, slavery, like, apparently, you know well, in the New Testament, there's actually a lot of justification for slavery or quote unquote justification ways of saying that the New Testament supports slavery.

Lucas Wilson: But of course, what we found with abolitionists was that they used the Bible. To, to, to support anti abolition sort of efforts, and they wanted to end slavery by using the Bible, so you can see the, you know, it both ways. But for me, it was just like, how in the world could God have changed God's mind, and then, you know, allowed for people to be enslaved, and then later on, you know, apparently, it's no longer what God wants, and I'm thinking to myself, well, that's not what scripture says, and if, in fact, we are to take scripture as some sort of, you know, human thing, you know, gives voice to who God is.

Lucas Wilson: I can't square that away. And again, maybe God's ways are harder than mine. Maybe I am being hubristic and, you know, I think that I'm better than I am. Trust me, I don't think I'm that great. I know where I stand in the world of things, but [00:44:00] for this specifically, I just think, I don't think it's me who has to give an account.

Lucas Wilson: I think it's God. But again, who am I? And I don't mean to step on any toes, but I do, I do think that God has a lot to, to explain. If, in fact, God is who I think God is. Was 

De'Vannon Seráphino: well , whenever you, whenever you well, you, you can, well, you won't ever hear any of his explanations if you don't talk to him. So maybe drop him a line from time to time and just go to him and pour out your heart and just be like, Lord, this is how I feel.

De'Vannon Seráphino: But I'm open to what you have to say because maybe, I don't know. And just be honest about it. 

Lucas Wilson: And I think that epistemic humility is important, because that's why I'm not, I'm not an atheist. I'm not, I don't say that this is the case, this is just simply, I leave room open for God, and I leave room open for, for a lot of things, and I hope, you know, I can think of like, well other things [00:45:00]too, but I just think to myself like, At the end of the day, right now, the evidence and the vibes, if we're to use sort of a Gen Z sort of word or phrase, it just doesn't leave me there.

Lucas Wilson: And again, maybe one day I'll change my mind. Maybe one day I'll have a coming to Jesus moment. But for right now, I don't think that's where I see God. Or if I see God. I see something, I just don't know what the heck it is. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Well, all things in its time. Let's let's turn to the book cover, and I will put this up on the screen whenever I go back to edit this.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So on this book cover, and we see your beautiful name there, Lucas F. W. Wilson. That's not an author's name. And what the fuck is we see this author for those of you who may be listening and not watching on YouTube. It's a picture of a person like crying and holding their like holding their face in their hand and it's made [00:46:00] with.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's a black background, and the squiggly lines, it's like this body, it's like just from the trunk up, like from the waist up, made of like squiggly beige, kind of like a dark cream, earth tone kind of color, and all of the words are in the kind of like a lighter version of that. When you see this cover, Lucas, what does it resonate for you?

De'Vannon Seráphino: And how does it apply to what the book's theme is? So, 

Lucas Wilson: I'm going to pull it up myself because I haven't looked at it in a hot minute. So, I mean, when I think about, again, the title is called Shame Sex Attraction, which is a play on what a lot of, you know, folks within conversion therapy circles refer to as same sex attraction.

Lucas Wilson: So, a lot of people within these circles say, No one's gay or queer, they just struggle with same sex attraction, which is a way of divorcing one's, orientation or desires, maybe more accurately, one's desires from [00:47:00] who they really are. Like, everyone's a latent or possible heterosexual, it's just that they struggle with this thing that affects them, i.

Lucas Wilson: e. same sex attraction. And so, I played with that, shame, sex, attraction, because again, not only is shame cited commonly as the number one consequence of conversion therapy, but it's also what brings people into conversion therapy. If they didn't feel ashamed of themselves, most likely they wouldn't be in conversion therapy.

Lucas Wilson: And so shame, when I think about shame, and I promise I'm getting to the cover, I promise I'm going to connect it to the image, but with shame. Shame is not, shame and guilt are two different things, right? Guilt, if you think about it in a court of law, I might be guilty for, I don't know, stealing an ice cream cone.

Lucas Wilson: I stole that ice cream cone and for that specific action, I'm guilty. That doesn't mean that I as a person am bad and that I'm guilty for everything. No, I'm just guilty for that one specific transgression or action. Shame, on the other hand, is where one doesn't just feel like one thing that one did or one part of oneself is, is bad.

Lucas Wilson: It's like the [00:48:00] person themself is bad, right? That they, as a person, are bad, and then you feel that sort of self, you know, abnegation or self hatred. you as a person are ashamed of who you are, not just for what you've done in one specific moment, but for who you are, you know, now and for the past and potentially even in the future.

Lucas Wilson: So shame is really it's also something that's not just feeling about yourself. It's always already a social emotion in the sense that I don't feel ashamed for things that I've done unless there's a person who looks at me and and sees me for You know, who I think I am, or who they think I am, which is bad, or negative, or, you know, damaged.

Lucas Wilson: And so, it's a social emotion, right? In a different way that you might have anxiety, but that doesn't mean that there's necessarily a person that's making you feel that way. Shame is something that you feel because of the gaze of another, because of how they look at you, because of how they [00:49:00] see you. So, on the cover, when you see this person with him or his or her, you know, face, let's just use the gender neutral, they, or their, their face.

Lucas Wilson: They're, they're covering their face. Because really where shame most viscerally registers on a person is their face, right? It's their eyes specifically, that people don't want when they feel ashamed for others to look at them. They don't want people to see them. And of course, windows being the eyes of the soul, or whatever sort of cliche we want to use, you know, that if that's the case, people will cover their face.

Lucas Wilson: And so what you see on the cover is this person covering their face. And they're covering their face because they feel ashamed and really the perhaps in my estimation best register of shame or the best It's a way of seeing it, if we can see it on the body and written into or onto a body, it's really when, when someone covers their face, particularly their eyes, so others can't see them.

Lucas Wilson: And so the cover that we have for the book is, is exactly that. And I think it, it, it gives [00:50:00] voice or in this case gives image to, you know, the experience of conversion therapy, specifically the experience of shame.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Yeah, that is one good way to look at it. If they're not crying, then they do look like they're ashamed. Hmm. Well, what do you say? I said, well, fuck that. We don't shame is only like beneficial if we actually like, I think, correct ourselves. Like say we'd been like, we were talking about before the show come on, like say we've been being a hoe, not that Lucas and I have been being hoes.

De'Vannon Seráphino: We don't mind other hoes, you know, like. You know, I was telling him, like, oh, there's a lot of young, hot ass dudes who I'm meeting now who are not sexually active because they realized they were being, like, sluts before and, like, how they learned how they were, like, damaging their soul because a lot of the sensual activities people do, porn, being on dating apps, it [00:51:00] feels tingly to the flesh, but you're murdering your soul in the process because you don't know the energies you're tangling with and everything is energy and everything is spiritual.

De'Vannon Seráphino: If you hop in bed with somebody you just met. Your soul doesn't know this person. Your soul don't like that, even though your dick do, or your asshole, or your mouth, or whatever. But your soul is all you're gonna have left when you depart this plane of existence, no matter what you believe in. And if you beat it up with a bunch of sensual surface level things and you're going to be fucked.

De'Vannon Seráphino: But when you realize that, and you feel ashamed for what you've done, then that shame produces corrective action. Now this is not self condemnation or anything like that. This is like, oh fuck what I've been doing. Let me do better. And so I've been meeting a lot of people who could be being hoes and they're choosing not to, but that's that it could be any fucking thing that people have been doing that really hasn't been serving them.

De'Vannon Seráphino: This shame here that with this book is talking about how you were saying somebody else looks at you. No. Like [00:52:00] I was saying earlier, everybody's got enough to figure out within themselves on this journey rather than to be looking over at motherfucking body else or up at God or wherever thinking that they know better than them. Fuck no, they do not.

De'Vannon Seráphino: People in the church who think, who, who, who, like when I was at Lakewood Church and I got fired from volunteering for not being straight, you know, and they fire other people too, even staff members when they find out they're queer, like the, the hubris, the low key hubris there is what they're saying is that you all are unfit to serve because of your sin, but we're righteous enough to serve.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Okay, they don't hear it as they're being prideful, but they are being prideful, but they'll come out and preach against pride. That's how sneaky, like ego and hubris is. It's one of the devil's main tricks because it makes people feel like they're being righteous in their energy, but they're not. I know they damn near feel the same, but they cannot make another person feel [00:53:00] ashamed because of their evaluation.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Because when people evaluate somebody, they're evaluating somebody through their lens and somebody's lens may be fractured. This is why I don't give a fuck about what anybody thinks, and I always tell everybody else to not give a fuck about what anybody thinks, because whatever somebody else thinks, it's based on their life history stories, unhealed trauma, and what they think is corrupt, and therefore nobody should be able to make somebody else feel ashamed because they don't have power or clarity to do that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And so when I look at this book cover, it just reminds me of confusion. Like all the squiggly lines and what it conveys to me is the chaos that comes within people's soul because the squiggly lines go from this person's waist through their elbows, fingers all over their heart of their minds. When people have this abuse, they can't see straight their hands over their eyes.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So their visions block. That means they can't see themselves, right? They can't see the world, right? They can't see where they're going. Their point of view is fucked up, the squiggly [00:54:00] lines in the head have to do with that, the confusion in the mind, so there's a disconnect now, between the mind and the soul.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Poor health in the body of the way this body looks with all these squiggly lines. This is what this is conveying to me. This is complete dysfunction and disease. Those squiggly lines are giving me incessant movement, anxiety. When people go through things, they tend to, Like a person can fill their schedule with a whole bunch of shit, not to, it could be hoeing, it could be volunteering, it could be all kinds of things and not realize they're doing it to spiritual bypass and do emotional bypass rather than actually tend to the issue at hand.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So I'm seeing a lot of busy movement here that's not actually producing anything. Those are the things that I get when I from God. When I look at this cover. This is a divine, a divine reading. Is that what 

Lucas Wilson: we're saying?

De'Vannon Seráphino: So I think the [00:55:00] job on the cover is very captivating, very provocative, and it really pulls people in and is letting you know that whatever emotion about it comes with this book is some fucked up shit. What done happened so referencing Lakewood church, and we'll talk about, this will be the last thing before we switch over to the dad jokes.

De'Vannon Seráphino: As mentioned earlier, Jerry Falwell, Jerry Falwell Jr., people who made this Liberty University, so if anybody gets any time on their hands and they want to kind of skip over to Hulu, there's a show on there called God Forbid, The Sex Scandal That Brought Down a Dynasty. We have Jerry Falwell Jr. and his wife, Becky, and that hot ass fuckin pool boy, Giancarlo Granda.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Who, you know, you know, was doing all of their sexual shit because I watched that motherfucking, Hulu documentary. I sure did. And you [00:56:00] know, all the tea began to be spilled when Jerry Falwell Jr., the photo came out with him and his pants unzipped with some hoe that wasn't his wife. Now this is the person who wanted to tell everybody else they need to not be, you know, queer and all of this and he running around with his bourbon always got a goddamn bourbon or scotch in his hand dick out dick swinging with bitches that's not even his wife and they got a pool boy in the mix boning his wife.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Okay. That's 

Lucas Wilson: it. It's just like the most wild story, right? Because like you can't, you can't make this stuff up. You know, you have, like you said, like you have this leader of the world's largest evangelical university who, you know, the university itself is an institution where you can't, For the longest time, I think now you can actually kiss, but for the longest time you couldn't even kiss, right?

Lucas Wilson: Like, you could hold hands, but there was like a three second rule for how long you could hug, and you know, then eventually, you know, and again, you couldn't, you know, do have [00:57:00] any sexual activity outside of marriage, and yet you had the leader of this institution, the son of the founder, who was in a cuckolding relationship where his wife was getting fucked by a Miami pool boy, and he was masturbating in the corner watching, you know?

Lucas Wilson: Like, And then it all comes out and it's just this whole crazy story where then he throws her under the bus like Adam and Eve, like the story of Adam and Eve, where he's like, she did it, she takes the fall. She's like, yep, I cheated on him and he, Jerry didn't do anything. Meanwhile, there's video evidence that he knew that it wasn't just like he was surprised.

Lucas Wilson: Like the whole documentary, again, you'll see it and how it ends is just so well, again, the ending, I think it's this like, sort of like, banger of an ending. I don't think that the documentary itself could have I think it could have ended better. But the very footage that they show is this, you know, truth bomb that shows, again, video evidence that he knew.

Lucas Wilson: So the whole thing is just absolutely bonkers, and you're absolutely right. I think that folks should absolutely watch it. And I'll stop saying absolutely, [00:58:00] but it is It's quite a story. It's quite a story. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: You mentioned how they didn't want you to get married or kiss. Hillsong Church and Hillsong, Hillsong's universe in Australia has archaic, draconic things like this too.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And Joel and Victoria Osteen and these Falwells, I'm sure. But for damn sure that Brian Houston and Bobby Houston the Houston's and Joel and Victoria Osteen be in photos and shit, even after. Brian Houston's child molestation situation with his dad was fucking the boys and he was covering it up, fucking the little nine year old boys.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And covering it up. So what I want to point out to people here is this is how projection works. This is why we can't let anybody shame us because they do not know better than you. And this is why I promote people to get alone with God, to perhaps get away from church, church being a place of schooling, even if it's not a university, which we should [00:59:00] graduate from church and any university because it's school, you cannot be in school forever.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Eventually, you're supposed to get away from church and go on with God and learn by yourself with him. These people will have all these rules and project onto you while they do worse, because you don't know people's true mental health and state of mind. Just because somebody in the mind is a very intricate web.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I've studied hypnotherapy. I'm a licensed hypnotist. I have been to divination school, divinatory school. I study and practice divination as a magician. And, and I, I already have a bachelor's. I have a lot of fucking education. I know how motherfucking people work. And then I've been a drug dealer. And now, like I said, I've been homeless twice.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I know humans. And one thing about people is you don't, you can't look at a motherfucker and tell if they crazy or not. And the craziest people don't know they're fucking crazy. And, and they don't think that they are. And so it's very logical for the Falwells to have orgies and shit on the weekend. And the Houston's probably whatever the fuck they're doing [01:00:00] and tell you not to kiss because it makes them feel good about themselves.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And yet the energy is bad and it fucks up people and it's very corrupt. A side note, I just want to let people know that marriage, the little document that they try to act like you have to have before you can fuck, don't matter, because as far as God is concerned, you are married when you have a close enough soul fusion with somebody, before you traipse down the aisle and hop across the broomstick and all of that ceremony shit, that's just for fluff.

De'Vannon Seráphino: If it's legitimate people and it's not some sort of fake ass arrangement marriage. Like, before you signed that paper, you were already married, as far as God is concerned. And I need people to understand that marriage is a spiritual thing, it is not a courthouse documentation thing. So be careful how you deal with being in relationships with people.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Because, because, because soul fusion and sex and all of that is a very powerful thing, but it's not to be played with. Because you'll fuck around and be married to somebody before you [01:01:00] think you are. If you're thinking you need a piece of paper, it's not true. I suppose Yeah, I mean I talked about my fucking shit with Joel and Victoria Osteen enough just know That these mega churches Just be careful fucking with them just do and really any church and just really be sure that you're alone time with god Is important, but for whatever it's worth, I did serve there for, I don't know, a few years.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I volunteered in the kids ministry teaching. I sang in the adult singing, sang in the adult choir was a worship leader in the kids choir. And I was the volunteer manager as well in the kids department. I was awarded awards in the kids, kids life department and everything. I applied for a job there. And even though years of service to them wasn't enough, they needed to check my MySpace page.

De'Vannon Seráphino: MySpace was still a thing. They needed to go to MySpace to find out who I really am. Because serving next to them, [01:02:00] going there five days a week, getting there early, leaving late, wasn't enough. They had to ask social media. And they found out I was hanging out in Montrose, in the queer part of Houston, and that was just much too much.

De'Vannon Seráphino: They came to me when I thought they were about to give me this job and said we're actually firing you from volunteering and working for free unless you read these books and become straight. In the meantime, you can be an usher and then we'll see about working you back up in our good graces. And so I got up and walked the fuck out.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I would get my felonies later on as a drug dealer. I wasn't going to get any of that day on the campuses of Lakewood church. But you see, if I would have done that, then I would have fed into the lie. You got plenty of gay people on staff at Lakewood Church, and a lot of them probably have wives because they're, you have some queens on staff that will have wives there.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Trust me, my gaydar is on point. They in the house. And that's every damn where you go. Where you have people, you got gay people. [01:03:00] But, but if I would have fed into the lie, and they know that too, then I could have read these books, put myself in a state of mind where I'm straight, went and got a girl. Got her pregnant and then been in this situation 20 years later where I'm like, you know what?

De'Vannon Seráphino: I've been gay this whole time. Sorry. Thanks for the kids though, you know, because they know that it's all a construct and it's a lie. So as long as you have a wife and you look the fucking part, then they will let you stay. But it's all fake. So you really have to be careful about getting yourself seeped into these energies.

De'Vannon Seráphino: That's all I have to say. The book is called Shame, Sex, Attraction, Survivor Stories of Conversion Therapy by our editor and contributing author Lucas Frederick William Wilson. Do you have any last words, anything else you want to talk about or say before we get into our Daddy Joes? 

Lucas Wilson: Oh, 

De'Vannon Seráphino: goodness. I feel like this Daddy jokes are 

Lucas Wilson: probably the best way to end.

Lucas Wilson: So I will put a quark in 

De'Vannon Seráphino: [01:04:00] it. Well, there's something else you could have put in it too. But you just told us to keep it classic.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Which decisions will you choose? Decisions and options, a cork or a dick, which will it be? I don't know, I'm feeling corky. I'm feeling corky. I'm feeling corky today. Not so cocky? 

Lucas Wilson: I don't know. I don't know. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: I thought they were the same.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Today's the day.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Oh, Lord what would ever happen if we met in person? You know, I've never been to Canada. I might just need to come out there. Are you in Ontario? I'm in Toronto. That's where 

Lucas Wilson: I, I, I, pardon me. That's, I, I'm from Toronto and that's where my, my house is. Yeah, but Montreal is really the best. Montreal is the place that you want to go, not Toronto.

Lucas Wilson: Toronto's great. Toronto's wonderful. But Montreal is the place. Oh, do they do a lot [01:05:00] of LSD there? I don't know. I've never done LSD in Montreal. But I can, I can do some research and get back to you. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Yeah, that's the kind of party girl I am. I like to go out to a very energy balanced, energetically balanced space, drop an insane amount of acid, talk to Jesus, twirl, and get my life with my sunglasses on.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I don't drink. I don't do cocaine in the bathroom with the other queens. I am not judging, but I will drop my fucking tabs and go in there and act like I own the bitch. 

Lucas Wilson: You do own the bitch. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: I do. So yeah. All right, so this website is just the ballgloves. com, it says, what, Jack, dad joke number one is, what did the buffalo say as his son left?

Lucas Wilson: Bye [01:06:00] boy? That's not a dad joke, I know. I don't know. So close.

De'Vannon Seráphino: What did the buffalo say after his son left

Lucas Wilson: bison? Bye, son. Bye. Yeah, . There you go. . 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Mm-hmm . Abs to fuck. Absolutely. There you go. I knew you had it in. You love it. We should be arrested for this. Yeah. You know what? Handcuffs are sexy in a way. Just make sure they're furry and pink. Yeah. Cuff me boys, I've been bad. But having been to jail a few times, it ain't like the porns.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And I don't even watch porn, it's so damn fake anymore. But and the energy is bad, but having been to jail, it ain't nowhere near that fucking attractive. 

Lucas Wilson: They should, they should make it clear to us, you know, cause here we are wanting to, wanting to go get arrested and, you know, get put in [01:07:00] handcuffs and put into a cell.

Lucas Wilson: And yet it turns out that it's not as good as it, as they promised. This is false advertising. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: No, not everbody's in there walking around in there ready to like pump you full of cum. This just doesn't go that way. 

Lucas Wilson: Well, contrary to popular thinking, I'm 

De'Vannon Seráphino: saying not everybody, you done, there's some shit definitely did pop off, but it's not like it was the going theme, what people are going to do, what people are going to do.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Let me see here. Dad joke number two. What occurred when the cup of coffee got offended by a joke?

Lucas Wilson: Cup of coffee.

Lucas Wilson: Spilled the beans.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's already brewed. It's a cup of coffee. [01:08:00]

Lucas Wilson: All right. Joe coffee steamed. I don't know. It was steaming. I don't know what. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: A brew ha ha. A good old fashioned 

Lucas Wilson: brouhaha. Right?

Lucas Wilson: Right. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Brouhaha. Okay. 

Lucas Wilson: Okay, 

De'Vannon Seráphino: I think you're gonna get bagged up number three. Why do bees, Why do bees, like honeybees, have sticky hair?

Lucas Wilson: Because they have buzzcuts. That doesn't make sense. It's just a bee, queen bee, worker bee, bee. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's their hair. Why, why would a bee [01:09:00] have sticky hair?

De'Vannon Seráphino: I don't know. What do they, what do they like fly around in? Like what do they, what do they like do? Binds. They buzz, and they 

Lucas Wilson: fly, and they hive, and 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Goodness gracious, I don't know! Because they use a honeycomb.

De'Vannon Seráphino: This, this conversation is over. That's good.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Cheeky bees. They use a honeycomb, silly. Duh. Duh. Duh.

De'Vannon Seráphino: All right. Thank you so much, Alec, for covering the show and sharing your joy, your pain, your sensitivity, your spirituality, your humor, your, your handsome fucking sexy ass face with us. And, we look forward to releasing this to the world. Congratulations on your book. Thank you so much. I really appreciate [01:10:00] it.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And thank you so much for having 

Lucas Frederick Wilson: me.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Thank you all so much for joining us today and for taking some time to invest into yourself and into the lives of your loved ones, please visit us at sex drugs and jesus. com and check out our resource page, our spiritual service offerings, my blog, my books, and other writings that God has partnered with me to create.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Find us on any social media platform, stay strong, my people, and just remember that everything is going to be all right. [01:11:00]